The latest from John Q Public

Here is the next installment from my old friend.  We can call him Jake now.  He seems to enjoy making long-winded accusations, with little to back it up.  What do, you think?

Hi, Bob!

I didn't realize that the forwarded email came from Barry.  But I see that the quiz portion, at least, is actually on his website, so I guess I shouldn't have been surprised that he endorses its message.

"How is it transparent cherry-picking when each example on the test is the truth?"

You know, I tend to assume that people understand standard English phrases, or, if not, that they'd take the ten seconds necessary to look them up on their own.  Here, Barry.  Let me Google that for you.  Yes, each item on the quiz may be precisely factual, but that doesn't rule out cherry-picking, since that's part of the definition of cherry picking.  The quiz ignores similar incidents not perpetrated by Muslims,(so what?) and then pretends there's a stronger pattern that emerges as a result.(there is, but obviously not evident to you)  It's the equivalent of compiling a list of several dozen women who live in Cottage Grove, and then trying to use that as evidence to prove that "almost everyone in Cottage Grove is a woman."(disingenuous analogy, proves nothing)  It's silly and misleading.

The Nobel prize list as presented is simply wrong (it omits a number of Nobel prize winners from Muslim countries).(show them)  It seems to me that either a) Barry knows this, but passed it along anyway (in which case I think we can conclude that Barry is dishonest and should not be considered a reliable source on matters of fact), or b) he didn't know this, despite the trivial amount of research required to show its falsity (in which case I think we can conclude that he is incompetent, and thus should not be considered a reliable source on matters of fact).(accusations are empty without back-up)

Furthermore, the conclusion to be drawn from the global distribution of Nobel prizes is not "Muslim countries produce very few Nobel prize winners," but "third world countries produce very few Nobel prize winners."(virtually all 57 Islamic countries are 3^rd world)  It would also be true to state that "Ashkenazi Jews (in particular) produce a disproportionately high number of Nobel prize winners."(disproportionate in what way?  Because they are Jews?  What is the underlying reason behind this phrase?)  The attempt to spin these facts into a deficiency unique to Muslims is dishonest and simply rank bigotry.(no spin, just fact.  You seem to dislike facts when they disagree with your personal views and opinions.)

Finally, consider this statement from the email:

"Muslims must ask what they can do for humankind before they demand that humankind respects them."

I think Barry -- just like you or I -- is damned lucky that nobody holds him to that standard.

As you cannot dispute this statement you assume the standard for us(non-Muslim) must be higher than that for Muslims.  It is Islam which demands acceptance of their dogma, over and above any other prevailing, accepted doctrine.  In other words, when a non-Muslim is in a Muslim country he is expected to conform to Muslim norms.  When a non-Muslim is in a non-Muslim country he is expected to conform to Muslim norms.  I hope this clears that up for you.

 -- Jake

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Hi, Bob!

Frankly, I'm losing hope that engaging with Barry will ever be productive; he seems entirely uninterested in honest debate.  Remember the Jefferson discussion?  Barry originally wrote this on his site:

"He said of the Qur’an and Muslims 'Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear'. So he thought the Qur’an, and Islam was a religion of 'blindfolded fear' after studying the relevant texts."

When called on the fact that this was in no way a true statement, he claimed he didn't "research that particular quote accurately," which sounds to me like a fancy way of getting out of the real question: Is Barry an utterly incompetent researcher, or merely a deliberately dishonest one?  My money's on the latter, considering his most recent justification for what he wrote:

"My point was that as Jefferson had no direct interaction with Islam or Muslims up to that time, as a fan of Voltaire he was obviously exposed to Voltaire’s opinions on Islam and Muhammad, thus his opinions and his views on Christianity would be, at least tinged with what he had read from Voltaire.  I merely want to point that out."

Compare those two quotes... since he didn't even so much as hint at Voltaire originally, are we really meant to accept this claim with a straight face?  Also consider that, despite the amount of time elapsed since Barry was notified of the inaccuracy of his Jefferson claim, that claim is still out there on his blog.(I posted your reply and my response, that is a sufficient explanation)  He's had time to post on his blog more than once since then, but apparently has no interest in retracting his false claims.  That's a huge red flag for me; it's strong evidence for intellectual dishonesty on Barry's part.

The rest of the response (as usual) carefully avoids addressing the specific objections I raised.  I said that Ali Goma'a is not the "top guy" for all of Islam, and that there's no proof that he said the hateful things Barry ascribed to him.  I never denied that he was important, influential, or associated with Al-Azhar University.  But Barry ignores what I said, and instead puts forth arguments to counter claims I never made.  His claim that he once had proof of Ali Goma'a saying those things, but it's all been carefully "scrubbed" from the Internet by some shadowy Islamic cabal, is pathetic.  Either he's way off into tinfoil hat territory, or he thinks that his audience is so stupid as to believe it (the Internet Wayback Machine would allow Barry to show us his claimed evidence, if it ever actually existed; it's an archive of the Internet, searchable by date.  I won't hold my breath).(I tried that but there was nothing, and you don’t say that the internet, and all info there is subject to all types of scrubbings, and changes, and editing which erase history or past writings.  It is false to ignore that, and pretend that the ‘net is all things to all people, and that it can never be anything but what it is: a repository for all things great and small.  I guess that is why you use Wikipaedia as a primary source)  Barry's not showing any signs of being a serious researcher, but he is showing numerous signs of being a mendacious crank.

His long, long list of terrible things Muslims have done is unsourced and thus unreliable, and is therefore utterly worthless as evidence for anything other than "Barry uses unsourced information and either considers it authoritative or expects others to."( I sourced it, you evidentially did not do your research.  All those listed can be traced and sourced, it takes time, time which you don’t want to spend.  I did the sourcing, I spent the time.  If you choose to ignore what is factual, and merely toss out empty objections, that is not my problem)

He lays to rest any chance of being considered anything like an objective source with this:

"As a rule of thumb, though, Barry apparently believes 'if they say bad, hateful things, they speak for Islam as a whole, but if they say good, reasonable things, they are either lying or speak for only a tiny minority.'"

"Yep, that’s right.  My belief exactly."(based in the words and deeds of those leading Islam today)

Hmm, incapable of objectivity.  Interesting accusation.  Since Islam, as defined today by its leaders and practiced by millions and millions of Muslims shows those bad, hateful things to be the norm, and that those who speak of moderation are either lying or only speaking for a tiny minority, how is it my objectivity holds no water?  You have offered NO proof at all that what I say in regards to Islamic doctrine, tenets or theology is incorrect or a lie, only that you are capable of invective, hollow accusations and false moral equivalence.  I ask again, show any recognized, accepted or “rightly guided” Islamic scholar or school, or even any accepted hadith or sunna which disputes what I say.  Since it is obvious you have never even read the hadiths of Bukhari, nor understand the importance of the sunna in interpreting Islamic doctrine, you are in no position to say what is correct within Islam.    

That's where debate ends.  Barry has, here, effectively admitted that he is incapable of objectivity, and has no intention of ever honestly evaluating any evidence whatsoever.  If there's no possible evidence that can change his mind, there's little point in continuing to pretend that I'm engaged in a debate with a reasonable adult.(you cannot engage in a debate on a subject you know little, if anything about.  Your lack of knowledge and study on Islam is only exceeded by your bias against truth and fact.  What flavor Kool-ade are you drinking?)

From this point forward, please let me know what specific portions of Barry's claims you find compelling, and I'll happily address those.  But I'm gobsmacked by Barry's continuous display of open contempt for little things like evidence, honesty, and truth; if he is going to refuse to argue in good faith, I fear I can see little reason to continue wasting my limited time in the fruitless attempt to engage Barry on an intellectual level.

Lets do this: once you have actually read the Qur’an, studied the hadiths, read the fatwas issued each day, listened to the words of those who kill in the name of Allah, then we can have a civilized narrative.  Until then, it is my time wasted trying to understand what is, essentially the ramblings of an uninformed pseudo-intellectual.  You have no credence when it comes to Islam, I fear you are just another Islamic apologist, a dupe in the ever-present politically correct atmosphere of obfuscation, mis-information, spin and deceit.  You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

Be well, be safe.

Barry

PS, let me recommend a book: The Al-Qaeda Reader by Raymond Ibrahim.  If no other, this should give you some honest insight into Islam.  If you want to read the words of those trying to kill you, and understand where they come from, this is a great place to start.