Tuesday, January 10, 2012

Death penalty for gays in Islam; not an opinion

Long time reader "JK" questions whether Islam mandates death for gays, and says that it is just an opinion that gays receive death for their actions.

"But saying that Islam prescribes death for homosexuality is an opinion - it may even be true."

It is true, it is not an opinion, and here is some context on why it is true.

I don't expect an apology from JK, those who support Islam and apologize for it's behavior have little in the way of capacity to admit when they are wrong.  It feels too good to hate Jews and love Islam to change any of their perceptions.

Here is a good reference from on how gays are treated, based in Qur'anic texts and traditional Islamic theology.

Homosexuality and Islam

In Islam, homosexuals (called qaum Lut, the "people of Lot") are condemned in the story of Lot's people in the Qur'an (15:73; 26:165) and in the last address of the Prophet Muhammad. However, attraction of men to beautiful male youths has been a part of the culture of some Islamic societies and the attraction is not generally condemned in itself.
With regard to lesbian homosexuality, some have argued that since penetration is not involved, female homosexual acts should be less severely punished. Shari'a (Islamic law) is most concerned with public behavior and outwards, so there is no strong condemnation of homosexuality if it is not displayed in public. [1]

Homosexuality in the Qur'an

The following passages are taken from the Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation of the Qur'an.
"We also sent Lut: He said to his people: Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!"" (Qur'an 7:80-82)

"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)! They said: "If thou desist not, O Lut! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!" He said: "I do detest your doings:" "O my Lord! deliver me and my family from such things as they do!" So We delivered him and his family,- all Except an old woman who lingered behind. But the rest We destroyed utterly. We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)! Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful." (Qur'an 26:165-175)

"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! But his people gave no other answer but this: They said, "Drive out the followers of Lut from your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" But We saved him and his family, except his wife; her We destined to be of those who lagged behind. And We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)!" (Qur'an 27:55-58)

"And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway? - and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth." (Qur'an 29:28-29)

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful." (Qur'an 4:15-16)

Homosexuality in the Sharia

While there is a consensus that same-sex intercourse is in violation of Islamic law, there are differences of opinion within Islamic scholarship about punishment, reformation, and what standards of proof are required before physical punishment becomes lawful.
In Sunni Islam there are eight madhhabs, or legal schools, of which only four still exist: Hanafi, Shafi'i, Hanbali, Maliki. The main Shia school is called Ja'fari, but there are Zaidi and Ismai'ili also. More recently, some groups have rejected this tradition in favor of greater ijtihad, or individual interpretation. Of these schools, according to Michael Mumisa of the Birmingham-based Al Mahdi institute:
  • The Hanafi school does not consider same-sex intercourse to constitute adultery, and therefore leaves punishment up to the judge's discretion. Most early scholars of this school specifically ruled out the death penalty, others allow it for a second offence.
  • Imam Shafi'i considers same-sex intercourse as analogous to other zina; thus, a married person found to have done so is punished as an adulterer (by stoning to death), and an unmarried one, as a fornicator, is left to be flogged.
  • The Maliki school says that anyone (married or unmarried) found to have committed same-sex intercourse should be punished as an adulterer.
  • Within the Ja'fari schools, Sayyid al-Khoi says that anyone (married or unmarried) found to have committed same-sex intercourse should be punished as an adulterer.
It should also be noted that the punishment for adultery requires four witnesses; by analogy, all schools, require four witnesses to the physical act of penetration for the punishment to be applied.But if otherwise any other proof is found through modern methods such as DNA testing or so the punishment can be implimented.

Read it all


Jay Knott said...

Barry doesn't expect an apology from me. That's good - I wouldn't want to disappoint him. I said "Islam prescribes death for homosexuality is an opinion - it may even be true". This is insufficiently critical for Barry.

Defending Palestinians against ethnic cleansing, and Afghans against bombing, or the few Oregon Muslims against the idiots you try to stir up against them, does not imply I deny the illiberal aspects of the Islamic religion.

So, no, I don't 'support Islam'. And it does not 'feel good to hate Jews' as you slanderously accuse me of doing. It feels very uncomfortable to criticize Jewish supremacy in any way. Despite your hysterical tone, your points about Islam are not always wrong, but it's hardly necessary to say them in modern America. It's criticizing Zionism that sorts out the men from the boys.

A Christian Woman Who Has Lived Under Shariah said...

I just LOVE you Jay! You are so very, VERY predictable.
NEVER do you address the particulars of Islamic jurisprudence, but you always manage to steer any discussion back to the "evil Zionists".

Cutting off little girls genitals to maintain their "purity" before marriage to 60 year old pedophiles - lets talk about those evil Jews instead!
The systematic imprisonment and execution of rape victims - Nope, let's talk about them Evil Joos again!!
Contrary to what many people might think, I don't hate Muslims, and have had and still have many Muslim friends. Many of them are former Muslims, and 3 of them are former Muslims from various Middle Eastern countries who were terrified of being "outed". They can tell you stories of terror and imtimidation, and about friends and acquaintances who WERE executed because of their homosexuality.
While I don't condone homosexuality, I don't want human beings brutalized, marginalized, terrorized and murdered because of their sexual orientation.
What I don't understand Jay, is why you are not out there fighting the good fight against U.S. "Imperialism" and Zionism with your Muslim brothers while living in some admired Islamic Paradise off somewhere in the Middle East?
No, you are just a typical, middle class, small town white boy who decided that US=Bad, Islam=Good without ever actually having lived for a number of years in a Middle Eastern Islamic theocracy under Shariah law.
Intellectual knowledge, book knowledge or perhaps a conversation with a former resident of Gaza City, is no substitute for a lifetime lived under Islamic hegemony.

Jay Knott said...

'Christian Woman' makes a good point. True, I have never lived under Shariah.

She also asks a good question. Why aren't I out there fighting the evil Zionists? There's no point in standing in front of an IDF bulldozer, what's needed is for Americans to oppose powerful Jewish hate groups like AIPAC and the Anti-Defamation League. But saying I talk about 'those evil Jews' is libelous - why would a Christian distort what I write so Zionistically?

She says she doesn't hate Islam, but she does choose the most horrible aspects of it to emphasize. It's as if someone chose Guantanamo Bay (or this website) to advertise America. And, like many Christians, she is so full of suppressed rage, that she can't see that I'm actually highly critical of Islam. This discussions started when I said it 'may be true' that Islam is homophobic. This wasn't enough for Barry and his following - they think defending anything less than Muslim-bashing hysteria means I support it.

Thanks for saying 'I just LOVE you Jay!'. Well if you have a picture on the internet somewhere, post a link to it here, and maybe we can talk.